Mondays 71: Blue Bike Tires

This week Chrissy Mancini Nichols and Tracy McMillan join the show to talk about climate change, Netflix taxes, and Dutch shared bikes!

Odds and Ends

The great climate migration – New York Times

NCDOT purchases rail ROW – News and Observer

Houston to Dallas HSR – Houston Chronicle

Towns sue streaming companies – Hollywood Reporter

Europe’s blue bikes – Fast Company

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Also, below is a full unedited transcript.  There are probably more than a few mistakes but for the most part the AI does a good job…

Jeff (0s):
You’re listening to the Talking Headways podcast network.

1 (14s):

Jeff (35s):
Happy Monday. This is Mondays at The Overhead Wire is sponsored by our generous Patreon supporters. I’m Jeff Wood your host and joined by

Tracy (40s):
Tracy McMillan from Nelson Nygaard,

Chrissy (43s):
And Chrissy Mancini Nichols from Walker consultants. How are y’all doing its good to have the trio back together again?

Tracy (50s):
No, it’s been too long. I apologize for baling on y’all a lot lately.

Jeff (55s):
Well, you know what happens? What happens when you move

Tracy (1m 0s):
Bob? I know you’re so upset. I haven’t going around.

Jeff (1m 9s):
Oh man. How’s the, how’s the weather out there.

Tracy (1m 14s):
It is good. It’s cooling off its great. And yeah, for those maybe they don’t remember their is now Scottsdale Arizona, the Phoenix, the Valley of the sun. That’s where I’m sitting now and it was a brutal summer and we didn’t go anywhere. So we kind of just suffered right on through And but it’s, you know, it’s nice. It’s cooling off now in the mornings or a really nice, I wouldn’t for a really nice bike ride yesterday morning and explored some of the shared use paths that are in and around Scottsdale.

Tracy (1m 53s):
If they have a really decent connected Network so yeah. Continuing to explore and excited.

Chrissy (2m 4s):
Nice. Chrissy how’s the weather. Where are you are? Well, umm, I don’t know. Jeff it’s a smoke. It seems to have cleared and Lisa in San Francisco for that. So I just noticed if we are green on the little meter stuff meter. Oh that’s good. It’s still hot though. I must say hi. Yeah. But yeah, I don’t. I moved to San Francisco for the nays.

Jeff (2m 34s):
Cool. Marine breezes. They come and go. They come and go. Yeah. I I’ll show you guys where the temperature gauge and my, and I think it might be reversed, but this temperature gauge, it says 82 in my office. So that’s fun. It’s not quite as high in my, in my head. It just be because my front windows get a lot of son. So it comes in here. It sits actually cooler than the back of the house. So just the office.

Jeff (3m 5s):
But you know, I used to have that big old tree in the front, which is actually saved him for many summers. But, but now it’s gone. So I see these like a little tiny leaves on the nutrient. I’m like go faster. Yeah. You get like 40 years. Yeah. I got my 42 years. Exactly, exactly. So, well that’s good. A this is episode 71. Shut-ins anonymous. 100, one is in session before we get to the news, I want to let folks know that you can get this podcast wherever you find your podcast, including I heart radio, Spotify, overcast, Stitcher. And of course Apple podcast, make sure you subscribe. So you don’t miss an episode Thanks to folks or to subscribe to the pod catchers.

Jeff (3m 39s):
It’s awesome that you keep coming back. So we really do appreciate it any like outside the news news, like in terms of like Transportation any interesting stuff that’s been happening with you all lately in terms of like work or a play or news that’s happening that doesn’t include tax returns.

Tracy (3m 58s):
It is very distracting to, you know, just keeping what’s going on and current events of course, but I’ll say, you know, sitting here in Phoenix and Maricopa County, I’ve been, I’ve had volunteered to be a poll worker. And so I hope to do that. I intend to do that and I’ve been really impressed with Maricopa. County’s the system of elections and voting and the information they’re putting out there and it’s, I’m looking forward to participating in that process.

Tracy (4m 34s):
So that’s what I’ve learned kind of focused on. Nice. Yes.

Chrissy (4m 37s):
When I’m not watching the news 24 seven. Yeah. I I’ve just been doing still. Do you make this a lot of virtual stakeholder meetings at night and councils and I’ve had a few, 1:30 AM councils. Yeah. Please help me.

Jeff (5m 1s):
I hope you sleep in the next day. A kind of got that long.

Chrissy (5m 7s):
Yeah. That have no that have got like, and I I’m. So, you know, started at five and all that one 30, I have felons where they are after midnight, the vote’s to start to the question’s kind of wind down. So I don’t need it. At least we were being thorough, but sometimes the questions are never ending, but I’m going to say like all of the digital engagement, it’s a, at least I’ve seen in some areas there’s a lot of, so much more public participation.

Chrissy (5m 48s):
Now we’ve done a couple in a digital digital stakeholder meetings and community meetings where, you know, not everyone has access to a computer and we need to do bilingual, you know, translation for the whole meeting and that’s, that can be challenging for sure. So I think there still needs to be improvement and how we are going to engage people digitally if this continues.

Tracy (6m 15s):
Well, I think it’s great that the options are available. We’re planning of road safety summit for a project where on the tail end of, for the Stanislaus County and just learning you were setting well, if requested were setting up interpretation services and closed captioning and accessibility services and just It I am happy it’s in everyone’s consciousness. That that is what we should do.

Tracy (6m 47s):
Yes and the platforms are enabling it and rolling out features left and right. Its great.

Chrissy (6m 57s):
Yeah. There are some really cool features where umm, on these, I have enjoyed using these digital engagement platforms because you can create these billboards and everyone, people are actively participating where they are. I know they wouldn’t, if it were a public meeting and someone had to get up and speak, they just wouldn’t wouldn’t post anything on a, you know, a big post it or it or whatever we’d be using. So, and then you can save it and have, we always take photos of the big post it notes or maps, but that now you can save it in.

Chrissy (7m 32s):
It’s so much easier and you can see who contributed wide and yeah, I think going forward, we’ll use some form of in person in digital engagement from all of our projects. Cause its really shown to be a way to activate the CUNY more than before. Yeah.

Jeff (7m 52s):
I wonder if it’s a function of like I know for me I hated group projects in school. And so, and I think public meetings, public meetings are kind of like one big group project and maybe that’s where that’s coming from. Is people in more participatory if they feel like they’re not, not in the middle of a large group and in his life ever assigned you a group? No, I don’t think you did. I actually thought about that before I made the comment. I was like, dude, you Tracy, I’m going to want to make this comment. Did Tracy ever give me a group project that I don’t think so.

Tracy (8m 22s):
I think we did maybe one neighborhood Transportation planning class that we did a community project. I can remember. Yeah.

Jeff (8m 31s):
I just remembered and So 92 Z basically was, it was a class where you had to design, you get, you were given a site and then you had to basically throughout the semester design the redesign the site to a certain standard and, and, and it was, I think Ambi Michelle was the professor and I remember just like, it was a big group project and I know that our group was really good and we actually, I think we, the, the best grade and the class and in Hercules, this isn’t that yeah, it wasn’t necessarily asked. It was like a or one of our colleagues.

Jeff (9m 2s):
Jason was just a really good artist and he kind of, it was a good, like I’m a, you know, a moderator if people I guess has the best way to put it. Yeah. But then I remember other groups who were friends before that like just had big blow ups and like, you know, a massive fights and stuff and then they didn’t do as well. So anyways, that the group process is always been kind of a, ah, you know, a stick in my side. I don’t know what it is, but, but maybe that’s part of it.

Jeff (9m 32s):
I don’t know, since I’ve worked my own business and work alone, I would like group projects ti you know, and it has to do with like a projects related to, you know, Transportation or urban planning stuff. And, you know, we worked for a lot of our organizations and, and MPOs and cities and this stuff. And we did pretty well with those. But usually I did enjoy going back to my office and, and doing my work in my corner. So that was maybe part of it too, where you found the perfect occupation.

Jeff (10m 3s):
You noticed what I chose well, next up is the odds and ends. So the odds and ends are a few stories that piqued our interest from the newsletter over the last few weeks. Hopefully informative here is what we’ve got. So the first one is a high speed rail is coming. So this week, high speed rail moved forward in North Carolina and Texas, the North Carolina department of transportation received a federal grant to purchase right of way for a passenger line that would run from Raleigh to Richmond, Virginia at the same time, a plan passenger line between Houston and Dallas received important approvals from the federal railroad administration to move forward.

Jeff (10m 37s):
So interesting that high speed rail as kind of gotten a little boost this last week.

Tracy (10m 42s):
Yeah. And I’ll say that actually the bright line construction project in Florida that’s referenced in. I can’t remember. We start a club, maybe the Houston article. I just read an article like an hour ago about that. I was going to send you the link that their going to be there, working on a, an area approaching the airport in Orlando that was going to cause a delay and a freeway for about a year. But they are actually doing, using an innovative construction technique.

Tracy (11m 15s):
That’s used in many other places, just not in the U S and so they’ll get it done and like two weeks and they are saving time and their saving money is like, Oh yeah, wow. Like all of a sudden, great. I think it’s, I thought these articles were, it was great to read, not surprising that the Houston article of course featured opponent and resistance and you know, not wanting to change. And I would look, I look forward to articles that contrast that with the freeway expansion projects, but I was glad to see in North Carolina article, the bi-partisan presentation of the announcement,

Chrissy (12m 1s):
That’s a good point is the contrast of high speed rail with the freeway expansion. You know, we wouldn’t be having this discussion if we were talking about freeway expansion, because with the opponents, are there concerns are over or the finding and financing. And if, if it was free, great experience or highway expansion, we would just be the government, which has to be paying for it. So for the most part. So, you know, I think you, the idea of having this Japanese style heartbeat rail is I would eat I.

Chrissy (12m 35s):
We all probably have written trains in Asia and Europe and are like, why can’t we have these nice things, but, and like I’m working at, at Texas a and M right now on the mobility project. And it stopped being in college station. And that would just line up, write with all of their campus plans. I mean, this would be huge to coordinate the, all of the state and economic centers, but too things that I noticed it was supposed to be privately funded. And that now the Texas central railroad, which is a private entity, they were just made A.

Chrissy (13m 12s):
They were just, it was just decided by the port that they were designated as illegal railroad. So now they have the right to of eminent domain, so they can acquire all the properties along the rail line that they need. And that’s where the issue comes in of there are a financing, is it mostly from the Japanese government? And it’s backed by all of this land in Texas. So, you know, people are saying, well, if it doesn’t pencil out, then the Japanese government will take all of our texts and land, which is, I think I don’t, I didn’t go through all the, I looked at some of the financial projections.

Chrissy (13m 53s):
I didn’t go through the mall, but it could be a possibility that that happens. All right.

Tracy (13m 59s):
And they are not worried at all about who, well, I’m not going to go there.

4 (14m 6s):
Yeah.

Tracy (14m 6s):
The amount of money that goes into the fossil fuel industry in the us and in Texas for oil production and who their beholden to with those projects.

4 (14m 21s):
Yeah. It’s an interesting double standard, right? Like if your, if you were worried about that, why Were, and there were some people that were worried about this, but Sintra, which was a, a Spanish company that I think went belly up a melt, all those toll roads right. In, in Texas. And they got a sweetheart deals to do it too. And through Rick Perry and other folks in Texas. So there was some opposition to that, but not quite as VML as it feels like fore. And they were, I don’t remember the whole discussion about sh one 30, that which loupes around Austin and the takings that were happening for that as much as there are for the takings that are happening for this line between Dallas and Houston.

4 (14m 59s):
So

Tracy (14m 60s):
I was also just trying to quickly Google, because it says the federal analysis estimates that rail line will displace the 235 homes renting from Houston to Dallas 42 businesses permanently affects more than 3,500 acres of farmland. So that’s all factor. And I was trying to find the recent articles that came out, you know, over, just over the past week about the displacement. So it’s going to occur over the proposed freeway expansion in the LA area.

Tracy (15m 35s):
There was an analysis that I saw people refer to on Twitter just a few days ago. And I’m just, I mean, obviously, you know, there’s a density difference, contrast that with the, the geographic scale of this project, but, you know, these are just,

4 (15m 51s):
Well, it’s an interesting contrast, right? I mean, it’s an interesting contrast of, of who are you displacing and where are they and, and you know, what is their livelihood? How much money do they have? Are they, you know, I don’t, I don’t anticipate that the building, the high speed rail line is going to lead to a lot of more and how to initiate emissions or Mmm. You know, expansion have of driving or rubber palettes or anything like that, which we know in, in here in California, at least in, in West Oakland and other places have been measured to contributes significantly to asthma in other things. Right.

4 (16m 21s):
Umm, and in LA to, you know, there is that, that is interesting. You can, I definitely think you should look at those things. And the environmental report was just certified basically by the federal railroad administration. But you know, it’s, it’s interesting to think about those things in tandem when you’re thinking about building a roadway versus building a railway and then what that means for the citizens that it affects and how much it affects them. Right. There’s people that hire are going to get their farmland slashed to a certain extent and there’ll be paid for that land, but not necessarily for a future like umm, for a future of yields, right.

4 (16m 56s):
That’s what the government’s paying for. They are paying for property and how much of the properties where it now. So it’s, it’s an interesting calculus on what kind of economic returns you have to. And I’ve seen people that I’m friends with, who actually there, there are a family owns farm’s on, on the roof and our, our kind of upset about it. And then they were mentioning that, Hey Southwest airlines flies every 30 minutes between Houston and Dallas. What’s the point? Why do we need this? And so there’s this, you know, there’s a discussion that needs to be had about why this is important and why a transit like this between two major metroplexes or is important as well here in California, the argument is, you know, we don’t have space to build a new runway into the, into the San Francisco Bay or a next in extra, a runway into a Los Angeles or a Burbank, right.

4 (17m 41s):
There is their space constrained in. So we need more capacity. And also, you know, the short flights are, are, are, are detrimental too environmental quality. So, you know, there’s, there’s

Jeff (17m 50s):
A lot of things that can be discussed in terms of the freeways versus the rail lines. Right?

Chrissy (17m 54s):
So I think a good, a good point you’re making to is the difference in the investors. So there are a ton of private tollways, you know, funded through a private financing that received federal to feel a loans, which is the low interest federal loan program that gives out billions of dollars for highway and transit projects. There’s a similar program for railroads called the riff lone that I worked on probably like, Oh probably a seven, 10 years ago with USDA T to try and reform it because it’s like a $35 billion pot that no one’s using.

Chrissy (18m 36s):
And it’s a very advantageous loan terms. I’m like, you don’t have to pay the loan back for, you can take deferments, you can pay your other loans first. So if people want this loans, but they couldn’t make it work because you have to pay an upfront fee for a risk premium. So as part of that working group, we got rid of that risk premium and that’s now what the Texas central railroad wants to rely on. So they want somebody is riff loans. And I think that’s what your, what your saying is we allow highway’s to get a very similar financing program and we don’t scrutinize who there are other financers are, but when it comes to high speed rail, there’s just this automatic know and everyone, you know, of a foreign governments or going to come in and take our land because if it were backing out with all of this taxpayer money, but you don’t apply those same, we don’t play on that same scrutiny over a highway projects.

Jeff (19m 35s):
And Japan is expanding so much, you know, their population is getting bigger and so they must have need for space and Texas to, to, to take that property and use it right in the farmland hinterlands of Texas. I mean, they’re there basically the German settlers of the, of the early in Texas, Mexico, you know, struggle soon. We’re going to be drinking instead of Shiner, we’ll be drinking Sapporo right.

Chrissy (20m 2s):
First we’ll be having ramen. I’ll take it.

Jeff (20m 8s):
It’s entertaining. Alright. And one final, a little note is that, umm, you know, I posted, this has one of my pieces on my Friday article that I write out for greater, greater Washington and urban Milwaukee and streets that I’m in. And a little bit of shtick I got pushed back on was that the Richmond to Raleigh rail line was only going to be 110 miles an hour or so it wasn’t quite a high speed rail. I have to admit to that to a certain extent, but at the same time, like I think it’s much better than 60 mile per hour Rail or a higher speed rail.

Jeff (20m 41s):
So you know that they’ll get there eventually mean. That seems like

Chrissy (20m 45s):
An example where it is, it is

Tracy (20m 48s):
Filling gaps in systems. Maybe there are regional flights that are happening between those areas, but there are certainly not as frequent and it’s again, now we have to create redundancies and an environmentally better options. And in the case of that project, it looks like by in large, they are you using existing real line with a free ride.

4 (21m 18s):
Yeah. They purchase CSX Trax. So yeah, it’s definitely existing right of way. There’s some places where the traps tracks have been ripped out apparently, but there is it going to build new ones on there which maybe that means they can go faster. That’s a great, yeah. Yeah. So next step climate migration will reshape America. As climate change continues, unabated millions of Americans could be forced to leave where they live because of extreme heat, more severe weather events and increasing numbers of mega fires. These events will not only destroy housing impact crime rates and the food supply.

4 (21m 49s):
They will also increase stress on communities that do not have the resources to move. I sent, I wanted to talk about this piece because I, I was, I mean, I’ve been alarmed by climate change, but I, I am increasingly more and more alarmed by it. But these pieces like this one in the New York times written by Abraham Lustgarten and actually I think he was in pro Publica and it got published at the New York time’s as well. Umm, so this piece was really fascinating to me just because of all of the maps that they made, where it showed, where you might, you know, migrate to, to cooler climates, some of the materials that they posted later on, you could like type your, your County into a database and they can tell you what kind of risks that your, your County he was under in terms of climate change.

4 (22m 34s):
Whether it was like, let’s see here, wildfires, water, stress, extreme heat, hurricanes, extreme rainfall, sea level rise and other items. So I thought that was really fascinating. I dunno what you all thought about this?

Chrissy (22m 46s):
I thought it was just, we have another round of fires this weekend and going on right now in Northern California I’m Tracy and Phoenix has been one at 115 degrees for like a month now. I just, I just wished Pete younger people would vote. I mean, it’s, I don’t know how we solve the climate. How do we solve climate change? How we even start to have a conversation about what we need to do when they’re are two parties that just disagree and now their policies are for fixing uhm, or trying to fix climate change or just at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Chrissy (23m 27s):
I mean, we have a presidential administration that’s like actively working to create, you know, degrade that environment like reading this article. It was so comprehensive. I think it laid out so many economic points, but we invest in silos, we in silos. But this is, you know, we have this Transportation policy is housing policies, farm subsidies are tax policies. They are all connected to climate change and we don’t as a country, take a comprehensive look at them.

Chrissy (23m 59s):
So until we do that, I don’t see how we get on the same page. And I think that I really liked this one sentence in the article where it says the sense that money in technology can overcome nature has emboldened Americans and where money and technology fail. It falls to government policies and government subsidies to pick up the Slack. So, you know, we’re all going to pay for this. I mean, through it, a state funded insurance, federally funded insurance, I just don’t understand how some people are.

Chrissy (24m 31s):
You can just deny This and in the end there are going to be paying for it. Anyways, if there are tax taxes or insurance policy’s, that will be more expensive or they’ll have to move or, you know, whatever it is.

Tracy (24m 44s):
All right. Chrissy and I think the challenge has been the wonder or the assault on science and it made it when you said the administrations and the, the political parties and people are at different ends of the spectrum in those end of the spectrum, are you? No, it is real. It’s here. It’s now to stick my head in, in the sand and it doesn’t even exist. That’s really hard. I like so many things.

Tracy (25m 14s):
We talk about things and extreme. I would love to focus on, you know, where people are in the middle and along that spectrum and how we can move them. And, and they were in this situation right now of challenges to the information that people receive and their receptivity to the sources and the information that’s provided. Its really scary and challenging to think that there are people that despite have they been impacted by climate events, don’t associate it with the climate changes that have occurred, but there’s, I mean, there’s just layers of ridiculous complexity to it, you know, and certainly, you know, why there’s denial or suppose a denial by some, in terms of not making change in climate or actively pushing and changing things that we’ve done to improve conditions is, you know, I’m sorry, we’re just, is certainly in the past 24 hours, just further evidence of the motivations that drive a lot of people and it for the betterment of their own bank accounts, oftentimes as opposed to you the benefit of the population and the public good.

Tracy (26m 46s):
And this is a perfect example of it. And when you’re beholden to the fossil fuel industry and the systems that are in place for that, you know, we know that’s how we get to a lot of these situations are our field that we, you know, we’re trying to reach a sustainable living environments for people and his were being confronted with. That was, we were just talking about why are we still talking about freeway expansion projects and this day and age is ridiculous.

Tracy (27m 21s):
Sorry.

4 (27m 24s):
Okay. Well, and then on that note, on that freeway expansion, I mean, if you think about this from a freeway expansion standpoint, I think that thing about how hard it is to expand the freeway. It’s easy relatively from a if you’re thinking about transfer versus free ways, but you know, when they expand the freeway, they typically try to give the cars another route around the area that they’re constructing. So they’re basically building two freeways in order to allow people to grow, to, to drive on the future freeway, write that expands like an extra lane. So there was a road there. They built an extra road to like carry the people when they were fixing the existing road.

4 (27m 58s):
And then they expanded the existing road by just a little bit. And I feel like there is some sort of a metaphor there for how we’re dealing with, with climate change. People don’t want to just shut down the road and like, you know, switch their paths to try to mitigate what the problem is. And I guess you, you know, maybe its a crumbling road, but you know, nobody really wants to change the way that they’re living in order to mitigate. This is huge, you know, a problem that’s that’s besieging us across the United States that says in the article across the United States on 162 million people, one and two Americans will most likely experience a decline and the quality of their environment, namely more heat and less water.

4 (28m 38s):
And for 93 million of them, the changes could be particularly severe by 2070. The analysis suggests if carbon emissions Ries to extreme levels at at least 4 million Americans can find themselves living at the fringe in places, decidedly outside the ideal niche for human life. So it’s the frog and the, in the boiling water situation going on with a lot of this stuff, the, the idea that one in 12 American’s in the Southern half of the country will move towards California, the mountain West and the Northwest over the next 45 years is ripe for this massive disruption, which is basically what the article is talking about, right?

4 (29m 12s):
The, the massive climate migration that might happen if all this stuff happens and we’re beholden to our own decisions, the, the, the, the ability to compromise and to, to get other people on board with our decisions and, and our feelings about this. But then there’s also like Chrissy, he was mentioning the monetary issues as well. I mean, we have this, all of this insurance stuff going on, where the insurance companies want to pull back in Florida and California, but then they’re not allowed to because the commissioners and everybody else is like, well, we don’t want you to get rid of people’s insurance because, you know, that’s, that’s not fair to just pull out, you know, when you realize that there is a problem, but you know, that’s what, that’s, what, something that we were ending up paying four in the future.

4 (29m 57s):
So it’s going to cost us one way or another, as Chrissy said. And, you know, and, and as Tracy mentioned, like its really hard to get people up on the same page on this. And if stories like this continue to come out, maybe, and the fires that keep happening in people seeing the orange skies, I think that moves the needle a little bit, but we need to move it faster. You know, good work were cooking in the pot and a, in that that temperature thermometers is going up higher.

Chrissy (30m 29s):
We talked about 27 in the article and that this is happening today and we haven’t and the Bay area been able to go outside for 20 and the last 30 days because the air quality has been so bad. I, the insurance thing is like something that really I’ve had firsthand experience with because we, you know, we we’re at one point looking at buying a home in berberine and it was in a fire zone, which you found out through the process in calling 17 and turns brokers 16 said, no, I’m one said, yeah, we’ll ensure it for, you know, like $25,000 a year, but we’re only going to give you a, an annual policy.

Chrissy (31m 14s):
We probably won’t renew next year. And we just thought poop, who’s going to buy this house. If you can get in touch, if we can enter your house from the fire that as a hypertension of coming in, like he’s going to buy this. And you know, that’s probably one of the reasons why we ended up back in San Francisco, but it’s, I mean, this is happening now in the fact that as a state where it, I mean, I don’t know what the answer is when a city like paradise, which are burned down, you know, had this devastating fire happen to them and they are rebuilding it now, or the article mentions for a KD.

Chrissy (31m 51s):
Andrew, I mean to tell the Florida has five, how much is it? $500 billion in assumed liabilities for a flood insurance and hurricane insurance. I mean, how can States take this on? And that’s, that’s seven, Times the Florida annual budget. I just, it’s just like, you know, one thing after another, we know these, these catastrophe, they’re not even compassionate these anywhere there just seeing, you know, monthly fire’s or hurricanes or floods So I just seen in the economic argument and how can a state take this on right now?

Chrissy (32m 29s):
It’s all the other pressures that has as a result of declining revenues from COVID. And that it seems like there’s so, and it’s like that either. So yeah, it’s like, where do we, where do we continue to build in these locations? And as you were saying, Jeff all of these people are expected to come to California. Where should they go?

Tracy (32m 50s):
It’s interesting, certainly being a person in that left California this summer and moved back to Arizona and, and didn’t worry, used to live in Flagstaff. Certainly, you know, there’s tons of there, there are a lot of homes that are in the We, you know, the wild land, urban interface, but the whole city, even those that are not as, as is being experienced in places say like Santa Rosa, if the fire is become so unpredictable, that you’re not even necessarily safe.

Tracy (33m 28s):
If you’re not, they’re in Flagstaff, do a lot to cut down on that development after a certain point in time. But now, you know, we, we didn’t, we, we moved down to the Valley of the sun in a sense, one of the people are contributing to the problem and it, there was an article and the Arizona Republic this weekend on how Arizona had passed a state climate action plan back in the mid two thousands.

Tracy (34m 8s):
It was one of the, actually one of the first States, certainly one of the first dates in the Southwest to do so. And that was when Janet was governor in the, the political climate was different in the state then. And there was a recognition that there was a need for change, an action. And maybe a proactive is not the right word because it probably is by that point, it was already reactive.

Tracy (34m 39s):
But if she left to become A to go work in the Obama administration and the political winds changed, and we had gone into the great recession and there was, you know, the peoples concerns about the economy. We were really heightened and the administration that came in was Republican and it had a different belief in the economic drivers that needed to be in place in those that didn’t need to be in place to address the economic concerns that the state had at that time.

Tracy (35m 22s):
I think with a lot of our policies, even now we were so it’s so hard for people to take this 30 or 30, 40, 50, 60, you know, being about planning for seven generations, but w we rarely plan for one generation. We barely the plan for five year timeline because it’s reactionary. And I think that that’s also, and, and, and politically motivated.

Tracy (35m 55s):
I think that’s the vicious cycle. We’re in a, in many places right now.

4 (36m 1s):
Yeah. It makes it hard for our, our politics to plan for longterm. You know, recently we had folks on really Fleming from the McHarg center. And one of the things that I thought was interesting is that he was talking about how, what John Wesley Powell was coming to the West coast and thinking about a, how to split up States. One of his ideas was to do it by watershed. And I think that might’ve served us a little bit better now than our current kind of a, you know, drawing lines and in the sand, because there is maybe there was alignment, there wasn’t a line they’re, but now there is because of our natural resources and how cities and economic unit’s kind of operate, its kind of weird to have the state’s that, that bifurcate all of the, and, and, and, and Arizona’s kind of a little bit different and that they have, you know, Phoenix Tucson and in Flagstaff or a kind of in the center of the state, they’re not quite on the edges and So, and there are in a kind of a, not a watershed on their own, but they also have the issue of water sharing with, with a California and the deals with that, and then Mexico as well.

4 (37m 1s):
But, you know, it’s, it’s interesting to think about how our politics doesn’t necessarily speak to this longterm issue of climate change in anything else for that matter. I mean, in the past we thought and longterm the in, in, in interstates and in California for water and things like that, but it seems like we’ve gotten shorter and shorter because of the, the, the, the flip flops and the changes that happen between different administrations. You know, it, whether you like one side of the other, it seems like, you know, going back and forth, it is not necessarily healthy from a, from a longterm planning perspective.

4 (37m 36s):
And I think that we see that in cities all the time with, unless its baked into the system, its really hard to plan for something different right at the inertia. It’s so strong. And I think that’s why roads and, and the system’s that, that enable road building typically are much less likely to change than say transit policy or urban policy. It just because of the systems that have been put in place that just kind of keep them going. And so I think that’s part of the struggle that we have with climate change is we can’t necessarily change it unless we, and then we have these big plans that we, we want to enact the green, new deal and other things and their big and their, their interesting, but they also get a lot of heat from the opposition.

4 (38m 17s):
So you keep on kind of doing that, that, that a flip flop back and forth. So that’s interesting part of it too.

Tracy (38m 24s):
We also get, I also get irritated that no matter what is proposed, it’s, it’s never enough or its too much from the other side. So Gavin Newsom, you know, does this executive order last week to ban the sale of gas powered vehicles in California by 2035. Right. And that’s not enough or

Chrissy (38m 52s):
So glad you brought this up Tracy

Tracy (38m 56s):
And of course, of course it’s not, it’s not solution. We have to have a complex of solutions to deal with the complexity of the issues that we have and the different pushes and pulls and options that different people can have. And other people can, it’s not, its not one solution. And the amount of crap that I read on social media after that, I was just like, you know, I’m done.

Tracy (39m 35s):
I’m just done people because So is the alternative doing nothing? Is that better for you?

Chrissy (39m 45s):
I don’t see any like the alternative for them is he eliminate gas cars now? Like that’s not a reality, right. Or, or, or people should drive less. They should. Absolutely.

Tracy (39m 59s):
Yes. And we should do all those things. Any past a bunch of housing builds today. Its it’s a messy, crazy, ridiculous process. But if we don’t put something I’m like, yeah, put something out there. We’ve got, got it. Like, and we’ve got to do it. And California’s, you know, always it is the first is a state that’s often out there doing it and he can be, that is the alternative is where, you know, the live a life where we’re living right now.

Chrissy (40m 36s):
Yeah. And if California has a mandate for electric vehicles, then the rest of the country will follow because the auto dealers have to where their biggest market. But it gets back to, I hope that we have an administration in January that looks at this comprehensively as you know, similar to butt, the Obama administration did with a sustainable communities, were housing and transportation environment work together.

Chrissy (41m 7s):
The secretaries actually work together. And that was like considered the, you know, end of days after, you know, it was, was broken up immediately, but there was so many good ideas and funding policies that came out of that, that, you know, if we were cutting, continued doing those things, 10 years later, we could see some change. So until we, when it’s not,

4 (41m 34s):
Then it’s also all are agriculture subsidies and tax. If they are all connected

Tracy (41m 41s):
Of the things that have to happen at the local level to the federal level and sensors inaction right now at the federal level or action in the direction, that’s not helping the planet or the people on the planet, then you know, things are happening and need to happen at the state and local level at at least

4 (42m 2s):
That’d be nice if the cabinet members can talk to each other. Oh, maybe that would be nice. I mean, you make a good point. I think that, I think sometimes I go off into these different random places in the Podcast and other other, and other discussions. And you know, we talked about Ian McHarg as a legacy, a few, you know, a month ago or so. And we talk about the farm bill. We we’ve had people talking about all kinds of different stuff because I think it’s important that we talk about all these things together because its not just one silo, it’s not just Transportation is not just her in planning.

4 (42m 37s):
And you know, I got a lot of requests for people to make my newsletter into a just Transportation newsletter. And I, I feel like that’s defeating the point because there’s so many other things that are intermeshed and it would be nice if there was a, a reformation of, of the sustainable communities group, the EPA HUD and FTA group that was put together and Oh, by the Obama administration to think about these holistic items to think about like Chrissy what you said, a farm bill. I mean, I love talking about the farm bill because there’s so much stuff that matters to cities in their that people just don’t realize because there’s just, that’s just the farm bill there.

4 (43m 13s):
They are due, there are subsidies and whatever else, but there is so much stuff from conservation, from, from this wild-land interface that were talking about from wildfires, from a, you know, thinking about food policy and how it affects obesity and how that affects public health and thinking about her walkability in schools and all that stuff, it, it it’s all interconnected. And so the farm bill affects the globe. It does, it does. And, and actually when I was, you know, when I was, I was reading this piece again today for me to talk to you all, I just thought back to this national geographic piece on the Netherlands and how their doing all this growing for the world.

4 (43m 50s):
And they’re the biggest export are in Europe, but for food, even though their not the biggest country, umm, and how the innovations that they’d done and thinking about, you know, how their food policy in, in the Netherlands and in which they do a lot of amazing stuff, they are there’s lessons to be learned from places all over the world to how we can actually have a positive Policy for food and for, for, for humanity generally in terms of the environment that I think would hopefully come out, if we could get everybody talking to each other. And I know it’s hard because as you all know, when you work with cities, it’s hard to get the, the, the planning department to talk to the transportation department.

4 (44m 28s):
You know, that’s even in that small scale, its hard. So imagine on a federal scale, thinking about trying to get all these people to work together, but at the same time are a future. It depends on it.

Tracy (44m 36s):
All of the things I love about planning, just like what I love about public health, you know, as you, you, you study those the broader discipline, urban planning or planning public health, and it is made up of sub-disciplines because its complex they’re interconnected. They can’t be a isolated. And I mean, we can see that now in the pandemic that we’re in and how important consciousness and action towards infectious disease is critical for so many other aspects of our lives, not even isolated to public health, you know, it’s economics, it’s its physical and mental health it’s equality.

Tracy (45m 33s):
It’s are transportation systems. It’s I mean it’s just

Chrissy (45m 39s):
Protested or write to protest. Yeah.

Tracy (45m 42s):
It, life is, is messy in those fields, those broader fields help to educate and engage people in that complexity because of that’s the way we have to operate and the solutions that we have to offer.

4 (45m 59s):
Okay. Cash trap Towns Sioux streaming companies by Eric Garner in the Hollywood reporter. If we don’t often have articles from the Hollywood reporter, as more people cut the cord on cable service streaming over the internet entertainment, such as Netflix and Disney plus are taking off that cities feel that these companies should be paying taxes similar to their cable utility predecessors and are looking at courts to decide if that’s possible. So basically these cities are, are suing the entertainment companies. The Netflix is the Hulu. So the Disney plusses of the world that provide basically TV over the internet and they want to have the same kind of cable fees that they were getting from cable companies before which people are cutting off left.

4 (46m 37s):
And right. So I thought this was fascinating because it, it reminds me a little bit of, of thinking about public utilities generally. And you all know how I love talking about public utilities, but the Transportation is a public utility electricity as a public utility water is a public utility and now people are thinking, you know, maybe cable and access for information is another, a public utility. And so these cities after a cable company is disappeared and they were paying fees to the cities. Now they want to have these, these companies paying some sort of, of fee or a tax to support the ability of cities to, to operate

Chrissy (47m 11s):
With Netflix and Hulu. And Spotify is there were looking at a tech system that was built for the 21st century. And our tax system was built, you know, constructed decades ago. And we just add these amendments or taxes here and they are Willy nilly or we don’t take a comprehensive approach to really fixing it for how people use goods and services today. And you know, so I think it’s horizontal equity in a attachment taxi cable.

Chrissy (47m 46s):
What’s the difference between a cable company and Netflix people use in the same way.

Tracy (47m 52s):
Why would somebody then like Bon be left out of this process in this taxing municipalities going after, as you said that the different ways that we’re now doing business, as opposed to the way that we were. And we have to a certain extent in terms of when online commerce began there, wasn’t taxation at the local level. If I remember correctly in that has changed, but I think you bring up a really good point, like, okay, or we really going to re-examine the way the funding comes in to municipalities based on how its been done before and the way that kind of business has done now.

Chrissy (48m 37s):
Yeah. I think that’s what municipalities need to do. I, I mean, so for instance, Chicago had this 9% of using and tax in the reason Chicago can’t tax Netflix in other streaming services under a sales taxes because a sales tax is a very narrow as is in some other States, it all, basically in Chicago, you are only taxed goods and in the state of Illinois and that’s what Chicago, his taxes, you know, model it against. So they had to create this amusement tax, which seems to be holding up in courts.

Chrissy (49m 11s):
And I don’t know what’s the pushback is here. Like its the same thing with the online tech online sales tax. It was just a lot of lobbyists and Amazon did not want to pay the tax. So they fought, but they lost. And you know, I think this is a similar situation where our tax system has to be pest, to modernize with how people consume goods and services and that’s what’s happening.

Jeff (49m 37s):
And it’s basically this weird aversion we have to pay in taxes as we found out of the last couple of days, it’s, you know, it, I feel like all, all these cities are trying to in and this is something that is California related, but also in other parts of the country as well. But we have, we have, we have a property tax and we have sales taxes and we have cap’s for the property tax of prop 13. And then all of these cities that are trying to fight each other for the resulting sales tax. So they can pay for their schools and everything else, roads, et cetera, in some places that property taxes for roads, et cetera, but like its all this fight over a tax money to fund your basic operations, have a city.

Jeff (50m 13s):
And so I feel like it needs to get normalized so that all of these places aren’t fighting each other for these different benefits of tax space, write that the basic idea of these guys fighting back against these little towns and asking for

4 (50m 28s):
It, ah, you know, asking for them to pay their fair share is the fact that these companies basically just want to make money for their shareholders. And instead of, you know, providing, allowing the city’s where people can consume in their services to provide basic services like water and, and streets and a access to, to healthcare in all this other stuff we could possibly pay for. If we have like a, a normalized tax system, I imagine that there’s probably some way to figure out whether we could just have a end even during the pandemic week to discuss this in past Mondays shows where the city’s that have property tax base taxes are much better off than the ones that have sales tax bases off because the consumption goes up and down so much during recessions and, and strange events like the pandemic that there needs to be some sort of a leveling factor to were all of these companies pay their fair share of taxes so that government can run and their not trying to fight legal loopholes like they continue to do.

4 (51m 29s):
And we shouldn’t let people who make a ton of money, get away with making more money just because they have a bunch of lawyers.

Tracy (51m 35s):
So where do we draw the line? Like So my son, his on Twitch and Xbox. And he just found in anime a streaming service called crunchy role. And so are we taxing all of, all of them as well. I mean, for the gamers, his X-Box being taxed or Microsoft. And we all use with people using a home services, mail, email, and office products and things like that are We same thing, everybody.

Tracy (52m 5s):
Like they are all,

Chrissy (52m 8s):
I think if there’s a charge there should be a tax in when we first S. I mean, we should have a tax system that is built for the modern economy and that is not to reliant on one tax, which no state does. You know, we rely at too much on sales and income taxes and California, most States really on property taxes. But when we first set up, for example, sales tax is in the fifties, forties. You know, we looked at the economy, we looked at what people bought and that’s what we tax we today.

Chrissy (52m 41s):
We don’t do that. And we haven’t the first bill I ever wrote was to expand the sales tax to services in Illinois because Illinois does it, it’s taxing or a losing economy, you know, only texting goods. And Today, we just have decided will put these piece mill, you know, we have this amusement tax hear or, you know, city’s or looking for every little, a million dollars here. There are even hundreds of thousands dollars that they can pull. But I mean, I just think if, if the gamers or paying for a game, then there should be a text on it,

Tracy (53m 14s):
Sales tax, or this is like a utility fee that they’re proposing here. So should the gaming services be charged a utility fee?

4 (53m 24s):
Well, I think it, I mean, I’m an expert at this, so I’m not gonna pretend to be an expert in, in the taxes that are necessary for cities to keep a utility infrastructure up so that you can get your streaming services or whatever else. But, you know, I think that I would agree with Chrissy and that I think we should, we should tax things as there are necessary to provide services for, for, for residents in one way or another, whether that’s roads, et cetera, but there’s probably some storm in a formula or some sort of way to like make it equitable for everybody and that your paying either a vet tax or maybe those companies are paying carbon taxes based on how much energy they use to, to feel the server’s that are using a ton of electricity too, to provide or, or, you know, how much of a heat they’re generating.

4 (54m 8s):
I don’t know what it is. Cause obviously, like I said, I’m not an expert, but there’s gotta be a more equitable way than having every little City fight The for a little tiny piece of the pie, a and have it, it at a state or a national level or, or, or even have a, just a general, like we have a zoning code that seems to have been copied over and over and over again in cities all over the country. And maybe there there’s some sort of basic tacks that, that works for everybody, but it definitely needs just to be normalized in a way that these companies aren’t fighting these, these, these legal loopholes in every single place or every state or, you know, cause it seems like it’s so a piecemeal it’s almost like spot zoning in a way that it needs to be more even I, you know, and people don’t like to pay taxes on the goods that they, that they, that they purchase either.

4 (54m 57s):
I mean, you don’t want to get texts 50% on an item that you’re paying, you know, you’re basically paying for the item, but at the same time, if you can, if you can show people what they’re getting back from, their investment in place community and the, and the Commonwealth for the common good. I think that, you know, I think it’s a lot easier of a sell two to folks, but there’s gonna be people that don’t make taxes ever. And then there is going to be people that want way too many taxes and that you gotta find some sort of a middle ground in their where, where it’s like it’s benefiting people overall. In my opinion,

Chrissy (55m 27s):
The issue is We the way that our tax system is set up. Were taxing a declining base, right? So if our tax system is not going to modernize were going to have to keep raising the rates. And all that is going to hurt are like, if you continue to raise sales, tax rates, disproportionately hurts, low income people. And because low income people tend to buy mostly goods and they don’t tend to buy as many services as wealthier people. So if your a haircut and your dry cleaning and your car washes in your limo, rental’s, aren’t taxed, but all have the goods you purchase are taxed or you’re buying your groceries are, you know, that’s hurting lower income people in a, in the income back.

Chrissy (56m 11s):
It, so that’s, what’s going to keep happening is where we’ll just continue to tax in a narrow, narrow base and cities or going to have revenues continue to decline and their going to have to increase property rate, property tax rates, or income tax rates or a sales tax rates, because that’s really the only tax if they have that. Yeah. Those are the big issues.

Jeff (56m 33s):
Yeah. And I can tell you as someone who, who sells goods and pays sales tax to the state of California, from the scarves that I sell, I the $2 and 55 sense that I send it to a state I’m glad to, but its also just an extra thing that I have to calculate when I, when I do it. Right. So there’s gotta be some way to modernize that, like you said and make it so much easier to, to do, but yeah,

Chrissy (56m 59s):
The Jeff do you pay tax? Are we charged tax on a substance?

Jeff (57m 6s):
Nope. So the Christians don’t all have taxes but in services, domain of tax in this way, but then goods have tacks. So I, well I pay an income tax from the services that are provided that I provide for folks, but I don’t pay a sales tax for that. But then on the scarf, which also his income, I pay both a sales tax and in income tax cause it’s for my income. So it’s like, I wouldn’t say it’s double taxation because people are, it’s a part of, it goes to the city and then the other part goes to the state and then there’s like a whole bunch of places that it goes, but I definitely had to get a license and I’m hae like some other people are trying to be above board now I’m like, yeah, I’m trying to do it.

Jeff (57m 48s):
All right. And that, and that’s the thing was like you also, like, I’m sure there’s plenty of people that are selling stuff on on. And I think there’s probably some, you know, not loopholes, but just like, you know, limits of how much you have to sell and all that stuff. But to understand all that, you have to go read like 50 pages of, of legal documents at the state level for the, the economic development department or the tax, you know, the, was it called the, the FTB, the financial for a franchise tax board yet.

Jeff (58m 19s):
So,

Chrissy (58m 19s):
So that’s the problem it’s we made it so complicated that it’s difficult for that, you know, a small business’ to obey the rules almost because it’s so complicated. And like you were saying earlier, Jeff, how the city is known to have to piece together, all these little taxes to generate revenue. When we first, when cable first came around the federal, we had a cable franchise, the franchise fee that was kept by the federal government and it was the set up set policy and every city could enact this franchise fee.

Chrissy (58m 55s):
They didn’t have to spend money suing Netflix, you know, that’s just, Resources more resources being taken away at it from local government’s to go after the tax evaders or to enact all of these tax fees are to go to court against them. So, I mean, it’s like every article we’ve talked about so far, we need a comprehensive strategy that is not happening.

Jeff (59m 24s):
All right. Should we end on a happy now? Let’s let’s go to let’s talk about Blue bikes, a Europe’s blue bikes. This one is by our friend, Nate Berg, a fast company and a company in the Netherlands called swap fits is offering a new way of providing bikes by the month. The service fee includes flat free flat tire fixes in a full replacement Bike if you’re ne if yours is needs more repairs, you just started out as the service for students’ with 20 bikes. Now swap feats has a 35,000 members and Amsterdam alone. So for me it’s is in Dutch or the word bicycle, but basically this Company swaps a bikes out for you.

Jeff (1h 0m 0s):
If you need a new bike because of your Bike had a flat tire or whatever else, I thought this is really interesting. Ah, it costs like what I think, 20 or 20 bucks a month. And, and there’s 200,000 users in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Denmark, which is a lot of people using this. Bike with a, with a blue wheel.

Tracy (1h 0m 18s):
It made me think about didn’t bird, try to implement a subscription service.

Jeff (1h 0m 27s):
Yeah, I think so. They like had one by pay by the month and you can keep the ankle with you to kind of, if you think it has to get around some of the rules and regulations of San Francisco is thrown at them, always about rules and regulations, $20 a month is cheaper each year. And then you have you’re own can or you just have to worry about where to park it. Yeah. I mean, it’s basically like buying a monthly transit pass, write and cheaper.

Jeff (1h 1m 3s):
And if you were visiting, if I were visiting a city where I could grab one of those bites, I would probably do that. Revenge. A dock less bike share is going to be here because its probably the same price and you don’t have to go around looking for your micro scooter. I was thinking about like in the long term, what’s the, what’s the cost benefit of having your own Bike versus getting like one of these swap feats. You don’t have to do any repairs to your chain or you’re your tire’s or anything like that. You can get a new bike at any time. It’s it it’s it seems like it’s like leasing, like vehicle leasing people, at least cars when they buy, instead of buying them and over the long term you might pay more, but there is like a, there’s a a, you know, a, a benefit to that and that you don’t have to worry about any of that other stuff that goes along with it.

Tracy (1h 1m 49s):
And if your in a location where a storage is not an issue in storage out S well, it certainly is comparable or it makes you think about something other than shared micro mobility. And, and also if it is someplace where you can store it outside and not have to bring it into your home, then maybe even your own personal Bike.

Jeff (1h 2m 13s):
Yeah. Cause I have my bikes right here inside and it would take up space. I was yeah. And I’m

Chrissy (1h 2m 20s):
Sure the bikes are happy.

4 (1h 2m 21s):
We are happy and that they are not rusty and Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Chrissy (1h 2m 26s):
Want me to bring it? Is it happy?

4 (1h 2m 29s):
There are happy and heavy kind of like after Thanksgiving dinner, what do you think? Do it, or do you think that this would work here? Do you think that in, in maybe a, a downtown San Francisco or people living here or, or LA or even maybe in Scottsdale, do you think that it would work?

Tracy (1h 2m 50s):
Ah, you know, I, I think at some markets it could work for sure. I think the, the idea, I can’t remember who I was speaking with. This might of been a few years ago when I was at class that Gail put it on and there was someone from Amsterdam speaking and talking about, you know, in college students leave at the end of the year, the number of bikes that are just abandoned and the Inn bikes, or they buy a used bikes and there are cheap.

Tracy (1h 3m 20s):
And so it’s not walking away from a bike there isn’t a, they don’t see it as big deal. So if you have a target market like that, that seems like a real great alignment. So maybe college Towns is a way to start that process.

Chrissy (1h 3m 40s):
Yeah. That’s a good point. And I think right now we’re seeing so many people more than ever before are biking. So, you know, you can’t buy a bike right now. And I think that will continue because you can see when people try something out and get used to it, they continue doing it at least a little bit. I think it’s a great model. I don’t know if they’re making money. I doubt it. I don’t know what they’re investing

4 (1h 4m 8s):
Well, so think about this though. I think it seems like they’re an organic Company cause they’ve started out with like 20 bikes and they just did it on their own and they thought it was a cool thing to do that. They weren’t trying to do some VC thing and try to get a ton of money and try to break the, the world record for, for, you know, a billionaire’s they were just trying to provide a service. So I think that’s a big difference between what some of these other companies are doing and trying to like get a ton of money and become the Uber of whatever it feels like. You know, I just did the math on 20 bucks a month for 200,000 drivers, $48 million.

4 (1h 4m 43s):
And you can probably get those bikes for a a hundred bucks a pop. And so that’s $140 per person you use for, you know, replacing Tires and paying your staff and all that stuff. It feels like if it’s just like a, if you’re just in the business to be in business because that you think its a good idea and not because you’re trying to be a billionaire. I think there’s something to be said for that, you know, it seems to work out

Tracy (1h 5m 5s):
Well. And that speaks to certainly there’s been a lot of writing on this in the entrepreneur space in terms of, you know, the difference between people became so in the hammered with startups over the past decade that we forget just business, a small business and revenue generating businesses that grow based on their revenue and their market share as opposed to outside money, that’s fueling their growth, but that is not matched with their revenue and it may never match where their revenue.

Tracy (1h 5m 43s):
So you said this is a business that was started to fill in a niche to meet a need. They did it based on the resources that they had. And they’ve, it seems like grown from there. Maybe they have some outside capital, but they also have a clear revenue source. Right. So it’s

Jeff (1h 6m 5s):
They probably got like a small business loan or something, you know, it doesn’t have to be some VC drop in a a hundred million on your company.

Chrissy (1h 6m 12s):
Yeah. That’s okay.

Tracy (1h 6m 14s):
Or give up ownership of your business that way too right now.

Chrissy (1h 6m 18s):
And that’s where I like is what you brought up Jeff is they just liked this idea, you know, was there idea because they saw the need for this themselves write and the difference is at a startup, you are always looking for what’s the next big thing. Like what can I make money you and you will beat your abandon as soon as it doesn’t make money. And as soon as it does it make enough money Mmm. You know, as opposed to a business where if you enjoy what you do and you can generate revenue and is profitable, you are, you’re not gonna just to abandon it for the next big thing, whatever that whenever that comes along.

Chrissy (1h 6m 58s):
So that’s more sustainable in that way

Jeff (1h 6m 59s):
For the serial entrepreneurs are out there. Like I launch 10 companies like you care about any of them then they probably do. But it’s a little bit different than your kind of lifelong thing.

Tracy (1h 7m 12s):
Going back to your question about whether this would be something that could be successful here, no matter how the system is implemented, it’s still goes back to our question of whether there’s an infrastructure in place that provides for a safe and comfortable cycling and certainly cycling for all. So I think the business model could work here, but again, it, we, as we have been talking about it, it’s based on the other factors that support that as well.

Tracy (1h 7m 47s):
We’re now in Amsterdam.

Jeff (1h 7m 48s):
So you were saying you need some infrastructure provided in order to give people there Netflix and A, and they’re there streaming services or Bike services’ if you go ahead

Chrissy (1h 8m 1s):
That this is taxed as it’s a subscription,

Jeff (1h 8m 4s):
I’m sure. Well, it’s in its in the Netherlands and other European countries. I’m sure it’s it. Sure. It’s got a VAT tax on it too. A value added tax, just a flat 3%

4 (1h 8m 16s):
Or something like that, whatever it might be. So all right. So This week and every week we want to thank our generous Patrion supporters. You guys are awesome. And keep the show going by listening and supporting each month, this show and Talking Headways, wouldn’t be here without it. So thank you. And you can support the show by going to patrion.com/the Overhead Wire is we’ve had people sign up each month during the pandemic. So we’re super appreciative for that $2 a month and you’ll get some stickers and $10 a month and you’ll get our butts only scarf a I’ve got about 50 left. So get them before the weather gets cold.

4 (1h 8m 46s):
And if you want to get our best on these car falls, so you can get one by going to The Overhead wire.com. I also want to mention something that you guys might know that we just released our audio book version of Raymond and winds 19 and nine classic town planning in practice. So if you want to get your hands on one, go to raymond.com. Yeah. So listener questions and comments. And this was actually a comment and question from the podcast we did with a Andrea Schmidt last week I’m we had her on the show to talk about her new book. And so this one goes, I’ve listened to some of your interesting podcasts.

4 (1h 9m 18s):
And one of them, you talked about the presumed liability. You guessed in the podcast that presumed liability online exists and the Netherlands and Belgium, but it’s if in fact, the Norman Europe interesting outsider in the UK with a few cyclists and a lot of a collisions just in the USA, probably one of the important drivers of livability in European cities. And basically he gave like a link to the, on the topic and said, It says the government needs to look at the Netherlands as an example of what can be achieved. The presumed liability system introduced and the Netherlands along with an extensive network of bicycle infrastructure, like we just talked about has meant that Dutch cyclists are among the least likely to be injured anywhere in the world.

4 (1h 9m 58s):
It is five times as safe to cycle in the Netherlands, as it is in the United States and three times as safe. And the UK, the presumed liability system is accepted within Dutch society and has heightened cycle awareness on the part of Dutch motorists. Many of whom are also cyclists with kind regards Hank b***h Lu. So that was, I thought that was interesting tied into that the blue Bike discussion where basically, Mmm you know, and I were talking about a pedestrian fatalities and the scourge of pedestrian kind of harm that happens on, on, on traffic violence, on roads and in the Netherlands and other European countries.

4 (1h 10m 32s):
You know, the, the driver of the 2000 pound vehicle is more liable than the cyclist or the pedestrian. And so this actually leads to less collisions. And I think that’s important

Chrissy (1h 10m 43s):
book and the best book cover ever. I love is love that book cover.

4 (1h 10m 50s):
Yeah. If you have a comment or a question, feel free to tweet at us or a comment on any of the social sites where the Podcast appears or feel free to email us at The Overhead, [email protected], puppies and butterflies. This is a part of the show. Or if we talk about something fun or interesting, or maybe just, and fit into the other sections, I actually did not have of hobbies and butterflies for this week, but maybe you all have puppies and butterflies. I mean, I saw some puppies, butterflies on Instagram,

Jeff (1h 11m 15s):
Which is nice, but they don’t have an irregular story.

Tracy (1h 11m 19s):
I don’t have a regular story either. No it, or I should find one. I need a puppy are a butterfly

Jeff (1h 11m 29s):
That might cause he is just barking. Well, ah, you know, we watched a lot of, a lot of Netflix and a lot of food shows on Netflix and I will make a recommendation for chef’s table. The barbeque edition Yes have you seen that is so good. Watched at all. So a Tutsi 10 minutes, the, the, the, the woman from Texas who is a janitor during the week and a half as 85 years old and, and rakes the Coles on the weekends, that was a great story.

Jeff (1h 12m 5s):
She was, she just, so it was just so great to see that. And also it’s, I drove through getting so much, I had no idea and, and now I’m, I’m mad at myself and I know my mom, my mom was mad to, she was like, we’ve driven by the, that, that, that meat market, like a million times to get between Houston and Austin. And we never stop there.

Tracy (1h 12m 24s):
I know I was thinking the same thing and the Episode on South Carolina, I was thinking what’s that on one of the routes I used to drive to go from Columbia to, you know, Myrtle beach or Charleston are, you know, would I pass that along the way sometime? Or it was, yeah, those were, there was a great episode. And I also, I discovered on HBO is carrying it. I don’t know how they ended up with it.

Tracy (1h 12m 53s):
There is a show called the great pottery throw-down. So moving from food to are in arts and crafts and its in the same genre and format it’s from that. And if it was for the BBC originally, but the same format of the great British baking show, same type of competitions and the amateurs. And because I had started to starting to get to get into pottery and I really enjoy making it, although I haven’t done anything in the past few weeks, I guess that’s my, that’s my puppies and butter butterfly.

Jeff (1h 13m 32s):
I know,

Tracy (1h 13m 34s):
Weird random. We were trying to find it last night. Like where did I see that? And it was, I mean of the many streaming services.

Jeff (1h 13m 45s):
Great.

Tracy (1h 13m 45s):
We are subscribed to, that was not the one that came to mind at first. That’s where it is.

Jeff (1h 13m 51s):
That’s awesome. Well Chrissy where can folks find you online and Twitter at, at the Anthony Chrissy or it might be curious city.com and Tracy

Tracy (1h 13m 59s):
On Twitter at T McMillan.

Jeff (1h 14m 2s):
Awesome. And you can find me on [email protected]. Thanks for joining us on Mondays at The Overhead Wire and thanks to our generous Patrion supporters for sponsoring this week’s and

1 (1h 14m 12s):
Thanks to Chrissy and Tracy for coming on the show again. Great to be on again. Thanks. .