(Unedited) Podcast Transcript 524: Yonah Freemark Part 2
March 12, 2025
This week on the Talking Headways podcast Yonah Freemark of the Urban Institute is back again for Part 2 of our annual discussion. This week we make predictions! We look at what we predicted last year and what might happen in 2025.
To listen to this episode (or Part 1) visit Streetsblog USA or the hosting archive.
Below is a full unedited AI generated transcript:
[00:01:40] Jeff Wood: Okay. So let’s get to the fun part. And I do want to say that this show, every year we do this, and it’s fun and it’s lighthearted and we predict the stuff in the future. We look back at what we predicted before. But right now, we talk about the stiff stuff. We haven’t talked about the gutting of research at TRB and other places that’s been happening. [00:02:02] And I don’t know what’s going to be left next year. We talk about predictions and stuff. And I have been really down lately about it. I do think that’s important to note before we start making predictions and stuff is that. I do take that seriously about what might actually happen and what might not be here next year. [00:02:19] But I do think we should have some fun with this and still try to think positively about stuff. But I do want to note that at the top so that people don’t think we’re being flippant about, what might happen because I am really scared about what possibly could happen. [00:02:30] Yonah Freemark: Oh I completely agree with you. [00:02:32] And actually I do think it’s worth pointing out, I know that public sector workers listen to this show and I just want to say that, I am truly thankful for the work that they do. And it’s sad to me right now that a lot of them are under threat. And so thank you for saying that. [00:02:46] Jeff Wood: Yeah. And there’s people that have been let go. They listen to the show. I know personally that there’s been folks that read my newsletter that have been let go and people listen to the show, at the D O T and at HUD and other places. And I just want to be mindful of that. Before we, we have a little fun. [00:02:57] Okay. Yonah in 2024, there were some guesses that we made that were very interesting. And would you like to very wrong? Not necessarily. Okay. Not necessarily. So your first guess from last year was you guess that there will be federal planning grant used to study the Roosevelt Avenue subway, a federal endorsement through money of Roosevelt Avenue subway. [00:03:21] So did that happen? It’s a roundabout way, but maybe so right after we chatted last year, there was a story in the Philly voice that said there was 12 million for upgrades to Roosevelt Boulevard. And in there, in that 12 million, there was 2 million for kickstarting the NEPA process by PennDOT. [00:03:36] Yonah Freemark: Ah, on Roosevelt Avenue. Okay [00:03:39] Jeff Wood: And so there have been meetings about this project in 2025 already. There’s poster board sessions and stuff in the city of Philadelphia, according to the city of Philadelphia’s website, 2024, December and 2025 in January, February. So this has been happening. Now, the trick is here. [00:03:54] It’s not a federal grant PennDOT, but I would say. That the funding that comes from the federal government, yeah. Through Formula Funds, goes to Pendot and then comes and goes to. I agree. I think that’s a win to get to. I think [00:04:09] Yonah Freemark: it’s a win. . [00:04:10] Jeff Wood: Yeah. I’m gonna give you a point. ’cause I think that is a win. [00:04:13] Great. . I’m interested in that project, but it’s a little slower maybe than we might’ve thought. And some of the boosters might have thought, but the NEPA process is starting, so there’s that. I also said, I personally said, and this was not right, that it will be announced at the MPAC conference in Philadelphia in October that the project will be kicked off in earnest, which did not happen. [00:04:33] My next one was very interesting and wrong. Nashville will not have a ballot measure or an election in 2024. I said that I hope that I was wrong and I was wrong you’re wrong and it won resoundingly and they’ve gone through and beat all the lawsuits that we’re trying to say that they had one word here one word there that was wrong on the ballot so I appreciate that. [00:04:54] You did mention last year how you were disappointed though, about our low expectations of what we can accomplish. And I think we covered that earlier in this show, but I found that notable as well, as you were like it’s great, but we don’t have these big ideas anymore. It’s just like transit signal priority, fixing some sidewalks and funding for service. [00:05:12] Yonah Freemark: Yeah, but you know what? Fixing sidewalks. Listen, everybody needs a good sidewalk. I’m all in favor of it. If I said that last year, I’d take it back. Let’s improve the sidewalks. [00:05:24] Jeff Wood: You didn’t say not to do sidewalks. You just said you were worried about the low expectations. Okay. So the next one for you my positive prediction, he said the Indiana bill to prevent bus lanes will not pass. [00:05:35] It’s true. [00:05:36] Yonah Freemark: It didn’t. Oh, yeah. Cause they made some sort of compromise. Right? [00:05:39] Jeff Wood: Yeah. They made some sort of compromise. I don’t remember what the compromise was. It had [00:05:42] Yonah Freemark: something to do with the blue line, like not having full, yeah, it was like a last minute thing. [00:05:48] Jeff Wood: It was a last minute thing. Yeah. But SB 52 died. [00:05:51] So you were correct. [00:05:52] Yonah Freemark: Yes. Yes. [00:05:53] Jeff Wood: Another point. See, you were worried. And I told you not to be worried. You’re very smart. Nostra Yonah. Very smart. Okay. Here’s mine that you might find hilarious as well from last year. I predict. I predict. That congestion pricing will be delayed due to stupid lawsuits and will not open in May. [00:06:10] It will open October, is what I said. Oh, wow. I did not expect, I did not expect the governor to get in on this action. The double heel turn from Governor Hochul did not. Factor into my prediction, but I said it would be delayed. I said it would open. So I would think maybe I should get 0. 75 for that. [00:06:28] Yonah Freemark: Oh no. [00:06:28] That’s a full point. It doesn’t. No. I think you deserve that. Come on. [00:06:32] Jeff Wood: But that I said, lawsuits. I didn’t say hokal. [00:06:35] Yonah Freemark: It’s all part of the same story. [00:06:37] Jeff Wood: What do you think about all this mess about the congestion pricing? What’s happening with that? I think they’re going to win. I think they have a good case. [00:06:43] They’ll have the MTA. is going to win? Yeah. [00:06:46] Yonah Freemark: I think that can be a prediction. Should we make a prediction? I think [00:06:49] Jeff Wood: that’s one of my predictions for next year. I have it on my list. Yeah. Oh, [00:06:52] Yonah Freemark: so we’ll, your prediction is that they will, that MTA will [00:06:56] Jeff Wood: crush the Trump administration with their lawsuit. [00:07:00] Yonah Freemark: Interesting. I. I’m going to predict that you’re wrong, whatever you can write that down as well. We’ll [00:07:08] Jeff Wood: find out. We’ll find out next year’s tune in for next year. Yeah. But like I said this is crazy. The governor basically saying, we’re going to lower the price and we’re going to hold it back. [00:07:17] And it was because Jeffrey’s wanted a couple more Seats, which ended up not necessarily mattering super much, but it might’ve been the death. If they went on the lawsuit, it might’ve been the death of congestion pricing. And then the only silver lining is that we got to see it work really well for a few months. [00:07:31] Yonah Freemark: It seems to be, it’s very exciting that it’s working so well. Congestion pricing. The advocates appear to have been right. Yeah. It is accomplishing the goals that it was set out to do. So Hey, it’s a win for public policy. [00:07:42] Jeff Wood: Yeah. Okay. Next up, you said Colorado will pass a statewide land use reform bill. [00:07:49] It’s true. It’s true. It did. They passed it. Now certain cities are saying they will not comply with the law and they’re worried about local control, but it passed and Jared Polis signed it. Signed HB 1313 in May of last year. It mandated that local governments and five MPOs change zoning to accommodate high density transit oriented communities to 40 dwelling units an acre. [00:08:09] The penalty was losing state transportation funding if they didn’t adapt. So some local governments are pushing back. Westminster, Arvada, Colorado Springs. I wrote down this quote from a Westminster city council member that you might. Enjoy. Everyone’s going to flee the state in droves because people want single family homes. [00:08:26] That’s why people are leaving the state. They don’t want to live in apartments from birth to death. I saw this stuff in Russia and it was built under Lenin. [00:08:33] Yonah Freemark: Oh my gosh. [00:08:34] Jeff Wood: That’s a Westminster city council. [00:08:36] Yonah Freemark: Now that we’re allied with Russia, shouldn’t we be supporting that stuff? Yeah. [00:08:40] Shouldn’t [00:08:40] Jeff Wood: we be building brutalist architecture that is horrible and keeps people in line? Yeah, no. No no apartment blocks are going to be a part of this but hopefully there will be some TOD. So yeah, so that, that happened, so you get another point, Jonah. You are sitting pretty right now. [00:08:57] Okay I said, The Santa Clara section of the BART extension will get lopped off for cost. Oh, and that was wrong. That did not happen. [00:09:05] Yonah Freemark: What is the status of that right now? Is it just they said they were doing some revisions, right? [00:09:09] Jeff Wood: They’re apparently doing some revisions. So they got 5. 1 billion through a capital improvement grant. [00:09:14] They wanted, I think, seven or 8 billion. They’re not. Getting that, and there’s certainly not getting that now, no revisions are going to happen with the new administration, but they’ve been working on some cost cutting measures because they didn’t get the money that they wanted. And so one of the cost cutting measures is changing that deep bore tunnel to maybe more shallow construction, which has been something that advocates have been begging for years, and the locals have been putting up a fight on because they said it’s. [00:09:36] It’s too far along. We can’t go back now. But I saw somewhere that like the tunnel boring machine, that’s the biggest in the world that they are building with 75 million. Even if they save 5 percent of the budget by doing this different boring it’s actually better than the 1 percent they spent on that tunnel boring machine. [00:09:51] So they might just get rid of it altogether, but who knows what’s actually happening in Santa Clara that’s so far down South to me. I don’t know, but other people listening to the show would probably know, maybe can tell us that Dina Levin always knows this stuff, so she might be able to tell us what’s going on, but yeah, so that’s, that was mine. [00:10:07] I got a negative. I got a zero on that one as well. Yona said Brightline will finalize plans for bringing the extension from Orlando to Tampa. Oh, that didn’t happen. No, it did not happen. So you got zero on that one. It’s delayed. Apparently it’s been delayed. I saw some articles suggesting that it’s a decade away and that the price tag is likely 4 billion. [00:10:29] Yonah Freemark: Wow. [00:10:30] Jeff Wood: Yeah. [00:10:30] Yonah Freemark: It’s interesting. The problem is getting from Orlando airport, the highway reservation is not there. Is that the problem? [00:10:38] Jeff Wood: I think that’s part of the problem. I think they are not sure how to get into Tampa as well. I think there’s a lot of roads and stuff that are in the way. [00:10:44] And also Brightline has had some, they’ve been revising their ridership estimates. And I think it’s a harder task for them in terms of funding and stuff. But, it’s hard to build a railroad line. This. [00:10:55] Yonah Freemark: Yeah, it also, to be fair, the Biden administration spent a lot of money on the bright line West project and they did, yeah, it seems like that project is happening. [00:11:05] So maybe right. Line’s just focused on getting [00:11:07] Jeff Wood: as much scrutiny either. Because it’s in the desert, I think, [00:11:10] Partly. And so finally my fantastical idea, this is the last prediction of last year. My fantastical idea was some legislator is going to put together a pot of money for smaller network bus improvements, whether that’s signal priority, Q jumping, pinch point management, et cetera, that can be accessed by transit agencies around the country. [00:11:27] That did not happen. I can zero, I guess I support it. I like that idea. Can [00:11:31] Yonah Freemark: we, yeah, it’s a campaign platform. Let’s make it, we should, [00:11:34] Jeff Wood: we should do that in the next transportation bill. We should put that together. That’s a win we can have. Okay, Yonah you had three points and I had 75 points. I think, again, you win. [00:11:45] Yonah Damas, Nostra Yonah, what’s the, what are we going with? Maybe my [00:11:49] Yonah Freemark: predictions are too predictable or something, I don’t know. No, because, [00:11:53] Jeff Wood: Who knows if they’re going to pass a land use bill in Colorado. There was a lot of opposition to the Roosevelt Avenue subway. Who knew whether they get funding or not. [00:12:00] So you’re, I think you’re doing okay. Okay. I think you’re doing okay. And who knew whether the Indiana bill to prevent bus lanes is going to pass or not? It almost failed. We’re good. Somebody [00:12:08] Yonah Freemark: should pay me for this. Yeah. [00:12:11] Jeff Wood: I’ll send you a scarf, another scarf. Okay. So next year. We got to make predictions. [00:12:18] We got to make predictions. We’re done, seeing what we did last year, but we got to do predictions for next year so we can laugh at ourselves again in 12 months. [00:12:24] Yonah Freemark: Okay. So you already have a congestion pricing prediction. [00:12:27] Jeff Wood: I do. So my first prediction is congestion pricing will beat the administration. [00:12:30] This will win all day, every day in court and the road rules secretary can pound sand. That’s what I wrote down. Yes, I love it. So that’s where I’m at on that one. [00:12:40] Yonah Freemark: Okay. I want to make a congestion pricing related prediction, which is that another city in the U. S. will announce that it’s going to pursue a congestion pricing plan. [00:12:54] Seriously. So it’s going to be among Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago. And Boston, one of those cities is going to have their mayor announced that they’re going to pursue congestion pricing. Seriously. Are you going to throw in Los Angeles or no? [00:13:10] Jeff Wood: Okay, I’m following all the papers and seeing what people are saying. [00:13:13] And that’s one of the papers that wrote, maybe we can do this here. Or, somebody said, maybe we can do this here. So I saw Boston. I didn’t see Seattle as much. Maybe they did. I don’t subscribe to the times Seattle time. So maybe they did talk about in there, but the other places have all talked about it. [00:13:26] Like you said, in their papers saying, maybe we can do this. Like I said, even though there’s been only been a couple of months of this, if it gets shut down, I think people know now they’re like, yeah, that works. Oh, yeah. So I think the Pandora’s box has been opened on this and it’s gonna do wonders for some of these places that are thinking about doing it. [00:13:42] And I’m also wondering, the other thing about that specifically is like. Because we had to sign that value pricing plan, the U S T O T had to sign the thing saying it’s okay to do this. Do other cities have to sign that same thing? Or is it because there was a certain highway that was going through New York that they had to sign that? [00:13:59] Yonah Freemark: No. I think they all will have to, unfortunately. [00:14:01] Jeff Wood: So yeah, that makes it harder to do. Because, but what the memo said pricing as a mechanism is one of our key funding programs. They [00:14:11] Yonah Freemark: love user pays. So if they love user pays, they got to love the congestion pricing. So I’m waiting. [00:14:17] Jeff Wood: Yeah. So that’s yours. So you want me to do another one or you want to go, you go for this one first. [00:14:23] Yonah Freemark: Oh, okay. I’ll do a prediction. [00:14:24] Number [00:14:24] Jeff Wood: two. [00:14:26] Yonah Freemark: My next prediction is going to be that New York state legislators are going to come up with a new tax source to support the MTA’s capital plan. And I’m saying this in part because I think the congestion pricing, as I said before, is going to fail in the courts. [00:14:45] We’ll see. But nonetheless, even if it succeeds, I think that the legislature is going to pass some new funding package. That’s going to involve a new tax source for the MTA. [00:14:54] Jeff Wood: Do you have an idea of what that tax source may be or what you wish it would be? [00:14:58] Yonah Freemark: I wish it would be a increase in the state gas tax, because it turns out New York actually has pretty low gas tax compared to, for example, Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania passed a very large gas tax increase. [00:15:09] And, Crisis has not occurred in Pennsylvania. And I think there’s an opportunity here to support New York state. [00:15:16] Jeff Wood: So I’ve been interested in interesting funding mechanisms because I’ve seen a couple of items recently about cities doing different stuff. Des Moines, Iowa is going to increase its franchise fee for utilities to use the roads to pay for its transit network. [00:15:29] It’s buses. San Antonio has like a. Cell phone tax where they’re going to use a cell phone tax to pay for transit funding. How does that work? What are they? You put a surcharge on the cell phone. It’s like a tax that goes on the cell phone bill. So if you’re using a cell phone, you are, paying for transportation in the region. [00:15:44] Yonah Freemark: Okay. [00:15:45] Jeff Wood: And then I got an email from somebody saying Bakersfield actually does a franchise tax and it pays for road funding stuff too on PG& E. Huh. And so there’s a lot of little like tweaks and things you could do to raise money. I find that was really interesting, especially the cell phone tax, but the franchise fee goes back to, the streetcars of early days. [00:16:02] Cause that’s how they were doing their thing, their utility companies and the franchise fees. And that’s what got a lot of them in trouble, obviously. But. Interesting ways of funding stuff. So I was interested to hear your ideas on that. Okay. So funny mechanism. Speaking of my next prediction is that California will figure out a new funding mechanism for speeding up high speed rail and the fact that it’s completed all of its environmental clearances will make it a candidate for new sources of funding. [00:16:26] And my wild prediction is it will be available for cap and trade monies from different countries and states like California. Washington state, which just passed it. [00:16:35] Yonah Freemark: Wait. So California is going to get money from Washington state’s cap and trade. [00:16:39] Jeff Wood: If you’re trading carbon, maybe you can sell some credits to somebody in a co op of some sort. [00:16:44] That’s that’s why I’m saying it’s a wild prediction. I love it. [00:16:47] Yonah Freemark: Wild. Totally. No, it’s great. It’s fantastic. [00:16:50] Jeff Wood: I don’t know if they can trade between states, carbon is global. It doesn’t stop at the state border, okay. Okay. Maybe you can sell some credits. I don’t know. I know that they get money from the California cap and trade program. [00:16:59] So that’s where that kind of idea came from. All these countries around the world are starting these cap and trade programs or carbon pricing or carbon taxes and things like that. There’s a city in China that actually sold credits from its transit agency to the carbon market of the country and was able to raise funding that way. [00:17:13] I think about 800, 000 or something like that. [00:17:15] Yonah Freemark: So is your prediction based on the assumption that the Trump administration is going to pull back federal dollars. And so you’re thinking state is going to need to fill in the gap in some way, [00:17:26] Jeff Wood: both that and I think we’re getting to the point where we really need to speed this thing up and it’s getting attacked on all sides. [00:17:32] It still has a 54 percent approval rating by voters in the state. There was a poll that just came out like a week ago. 54 percent is pretty good number. That’s how much the bond passed. I think 53 or 50 percent back in 2008, another 2008. So I think in addition to the feds pulling back money, I think that there needs to be a new funding source that can just get this thing going and get it over the line, because we need to start building. [00:17:52] We need to start tunneling between Bakersfield and LA, and we need to start tunneling between Merced and San Francisco. So we need to get that thing going or Merced and San Jose. Cause we’ve got the Caltrain electrification that happened already. [00:18:03] Yonah Freemark: Okay. That’s cool. I hope you’re right. I love that prediction. [00:18:07] I think it is a bit wild in terms of realism, but I love it. [00:18:10] Jeff Wood: There’s two parts to it, right? There’s the, we will need to look for new funding, but then there’s also the type of funding it is. So the type of funding is its own basket of prediction. [00:18:17] Yonah Freemark: Yeah. [00:18:18] Jeff Wood: The funding search is my main prediction. [00:18:20] Yonah Freemark: I think that the speeding up is the maybe hardest element of it, but I did see that Senator Wiener is trying to put together a bill that would in some ways speed it up. [00:18:29] Jeff Wood: Yeah, he’s trying to get it so that CEQA approvals and permits and stuff are just as of right for certain projects like high speed rail, light rail projects, subway expansions and stuff like that. [00:18:38] He did it for small projects, bus lanes and bike lanes and things like that last year, but he’s trying to make it for bigger projects now. And I think that could be wildly successful. [00:18:47] Yonah Freemark: Super cool. [00:18:48] Jeff Wood: Okay. You’re up next. [00:18:50] Yonah Freemark: Let’s see. I keep thinking of the Canada high speed rail project. Cause I just spoke with somebody who is involved in that project and it’s a moderate level prediction that might’ve seemed crazy like a month ago is that because of the Trump backlash, I think, [00:19:03] Jeff Wood: are you trading on insider [00:19:04] Yonah Freemark: information? [00:19:05] No. I just looked at random. No. But I think. The Canadian federal election is coming up very soon. I think that the liberals are going to win the election and I think they’re going to double down on getting this project moving forward. And I think one of the things we’ll see is an announcement that the project will move forward more quickly than the five years before construction, which is what they initially announced. [00:19:27] So I’m predicting that the new government is going to announce this, going to speed it up and also that they’re going to. Advance the project that has been proposed between Calgary and Edmonton as a second high speed rail project. [00:19:40] Jeff Wood: Kind of the cover their bases across the country. Yeah. Geographic equity as it were. [00:19:44] Exactly. Yeah. No, I like that. I think the tariffs and the closeness of the, how do you say his name? And he pulled pull beer pull a beer. I’m not sure. I don’t know. Whatever the P guy. Who is in Canada, who is the conservative leading the charge there for them. I think he’s got himself in trouble because he’s too close to this guy who’s threatening the country. [00:20:03] And Canadians listening to this show specifically, I do not want you to become the 51st state. I think you should be your own country. And anybody who says otherwise is an asshole. Ha. Fully endorse, I agree. Just get that out there. Be your own thing. Ukraine, be your own thing. [00:20:17] Canada, be your own thing. And that’s all I got to say about that. So my next prediction is more governors in blue states will start flexing highway monies to pay for transit service. [00:20:27] Yonah Freemark: Ooh, [00:20:27] Jeff Wood: yeah. Josh Shapiro did it. Why can’t anybody else? [00:20:30] Yonah Freemark: Ooh, I like that prediction so much. And it’s such an opportunity as long as the feds don’t decide to step in. [00:20:36] Jeff Wood: As long as they don’t decide that you can’t do that anymore. Yeah. It’s in the bill. It’s in the transportation bill. [00:20:43] Yonah Freemark: the Congress should prevent that from happening, [00:20:46] Jeff Wood: they haven’t done anything yet. Prevented anything. They’re crazy. So I just, I’m so amazed that they’re just going to give away their power like that. [00:20:52] Those power hungry people, maybe they just feel like they’re going to be given it back. Nope. [00:20:57] Yonah Freemark: I’m not sure. I am shocked. Once you eat a cookie, you’re not giving [00:21:01] Jeff Wood: it back. [00:21:01] Yonah Freemark: Yeah. Related to that, I have a prediction about the next surface transportation bill, which is going up to Congress. [00:21:09] They’ll have to pass something in 2026. They’re [00:21:11] Jeff Wood: talking about it now. We had an EPW meeting about it yesterday. [00:21:14] Yonah Freemark: Already talking about it. And one of the things that I’m expecting is that the competitive parts of the infrastructure law, which were 20 percent of transportation spending back in 2021. [00:21:25] I predict they’re going to get rid of it entirely. There will be no competitive grants, [00:21:29] Jeff Wood: no, raise grants or build grants or whatever you want to call them. There’s going to be no, I [00:21:33] Yonah Freemark: think they’re just going to kill all those programs. [00:21:36] Jeff Wood: You don’t think they’re just going to wait it down and be like, you’re going to rural Wisconsin and you’re going to rural Appalachia and you’re going to here. [00:21:43] And they’re just, they’re not even going to try that. They’re just going to get rid of them. [00:21:45] Yonah Freemark: Yeah. My prediction is that they’re just going to go entirely to formula and it’s going to maintain the state focus of the formula today. Unfortunately. [00:21:54] Jeff Wood: I guess that matches what they’re doing by hacking off the civil service, right? [00:21:58] They’re getting rid of all these DOT employees. They don’t have the people to be giving grants, right? So they’re just going to do formula funds. And that’s their way of saying this is more efficient, which is bullshit as [00:22:08] Yonah Freemark: and I think one thing that is not. necessarily understood by a lot of these senators and Congress people, but, maybe if anybody’s listening, if they care is that the competitive grants allow for localities to play a role in the transportation program that they usually don’t get to play a role in because of the way the system is structured. [00:22:25] So by getting rid of the competitive grants, you’re essentially taking localities out of the conversation, which is a pretty disappointing process. [00:22:32] Jeff Wood: Biden administration was. The local pay stuff. And it’s not just transportation grants, but like stuff in the IRA inflation reduction act that basically said, for utilities and things like that, you can apply directly for funding for, getting a heat pumps or whatever else for communities. [00:22:48] That’s huge difference between having to go through some regulating agency at your state or something like that. Yep. And the same thing for transportation projects. If you want a bike lane, you could go straight to the feds. And say, I want a bike lane. And then if it fits a certain, thing, you can go and get them instead of having to go formula funds through the state. [00:23:03] And then the state, which may or may not be friendly to your type of projects would get it through. And it’s not just like the big cities, it’s these small towns, right? Small towns in rural places that. Could apply for stuff if they had the capacity. That’s another question about whether that happens. [00:23:16] That was actually a kind of a problem for a lot of places. If they were too small, even if they’re applying for state funding, but if they’re applying for federal funding as well, they’re too small. They might’ve had help from the Rockefeller foundation or somebody else that made that work. But aside from that, it was a benefit for these places that may have never have gotten a federal grant, being able to go and get one for something they may need. [00:23:34] Then you have to be a, like by lane, it could have been like a streetlight or traffic light or something along those lines. So it’s. Definitely gonna be negative for everybody, not just like blue states and blue cities. Okay. My last one, transit ridership will continue to rebound around the country as more people are required to return to the [00:23:50] Yonah Freemark: office. [00:23:52] So that makes sense to me with one exception, which is how do you feel about, I live in Washington, DC, the ridership has been going up quite substantially here, partially because of return of office, but at the same time, they’re firing all the staff for the federal government. I kind of wonder, do you think that will apply to DC or do you think DC will be different? [00:24:09] They [00:24:09] Jeff Wood: gotta get to the protest somehow. Maybe you’re [00:24:11] Yonah Freemark: Maybe you’re [00:24:13] Jeff Wood: Okay. Maybe the Trump administration will just shut down the subway altogether because they’re tired of the protests. I don’t know. I did think about that actually when I was thinking about this because if all of these civil servants are losing their jobs and it will hurt DC the worst because that’s where a lot of them are. [00:24:26] But a lot of them are all over the country. I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day of folks saying like my staff in California, Nevada, the Western DOT offices. Are getting hit as well. So it’s not just in DC. It’s like people all over the country that work for the federal government. Like the largest city that has federal workers is Kansas city. [00:24:43] Most of their economy is based on federal offices for USDA and other things that are working on farm stuff. Who knows what’s going to happen to Kansas city and other places like I think. Bay area, you can absorb some of the folks that are being laid off in the transportation sector, but in other cities that are very heavily federal, it’s not going to be good. [00:24:59] And then the college towns too, right? All these NIH grants and all the academy of sciences grants and stuff that are getting disappeared, that’s going to really impact college towns, which I think is what their point is. They’re trying to kill off these blue dots in these red States that are voting the other way. [00:25:13] This is a systematic dismantling of the system as it is now. What you got? What’s your fantastical? Yeah. No, I don’t want to end like that. Okay. [00:25:22] Yonah Freemark: And it was something exciting and fun. [00:25:23] Jeff Wood: Yeah. And maybe a little bit wild. I did the wild one last year. You get the fantastical idea this year. [00:25:28] Yonah Freemark: Okay. [00:25:29] My wild thing is that the Detroit region. We’ll finally come together with an actual regional transit plan and the funding to create a great network of transit service that serves not only Wayne County, but also the surrounding counties. [00:25:46] Jeff Wood: Wow. [00:25:47] Yonah Freemark: Excellent. Frequent bus service. Okay. [00:25:50] Jeff Wood: That is fantastical, but it is also excellent. [00:25:55] What makes you think that there must be a sliver of idea there. [00:25:58] Yonah Freemark: I think that Michigan has this progressive streak in it right now. The legislature has Republicans in control, but I don’t know. I think that there is an interest in improving the state. I think that the governor has been pretty dynamic and I don’t know. [00:26:18] I’m pretty sure that folks there are aware of the fact that they can’t just continue the status quo with the way things are going. I don’t know. I’m enthusiastic about them thinking about a different type of future. [00:26:28] Jeff Wood: I think that’s true. But also I think that it’s really interesting to watch what’s been happening in Detroit lately and in Southeast Michigan, mostly because of the idea of the narrative taking hold for so many decades that it was a loser County. [00:26:39] It was a loser city. The people were leaving in terms of population loss. Nobody there’s a loser, but it was a story that was told over and over again. And then the census said. You guys got some population gain and everybody’s what we gained population. And so the story flips and the narrative flips and everybody’s excited about Detroit again. [00:26:57] And I, I think that’s just wonderful. And I think, the idea of the Rust Belt, the term itself, some people who have been there a long time, see it as negative, but others, the new folks are like, Hey, this is what we are. Screw you if you don’t like it, we’re the Rust Belt and we like it. [00:27:09] And so I think that narrative change and that attitude change is really necessary and really exciting too, at the same time. [00:27:15] Yonah Freemark: Yeah. And I, the administration can do all it wants to deny climate change, but here’s the reality places in the South and West are going to get increasingly hot. They’re going to suffer from increasing numbers of disasters. [00:27:29] The great late States have a lot of potential. Their climate is better. A lot of water. They have fewer disasters. These are places that should grow into the future. So I don’t know I’m bullish about the future of these places. [00:27:41] Jeff Wood: Yeah. And realistically, as we found out in Appalachia in North Carolina, there are no real climate havens necessarily, but there are places that are better than others to a certain extent. [00:27:51] Jeff Wood: And I think that’s true of a lot of these Midwestern cities. They might see a population gain because of the. Whatever happens in the Southern states. We don’t know what’s going to happen with Florida. The governor is talking about getting rid of property taxes altogether, and they’re already having an insurance crisis as it is. [00:28:07] And housing prices are leveling out and maybe going South because people can’t get insurance because of the climate crisis. We’re going to see a real mess happen and it might be another migration North, which might be interesting. And it might be a new era. [00:28:21] Yonah Freemark: Yeah. Be interested. So the question is, can we build, yeah. [00:28:23] Can we build housing? Can [00:28:24] Jeff Wood: you do it fast [00:28:25] Yonah Freemark: enough? Give people the chance to stay in Northern cities and enjoy their lives there. [00:28:29] Jeff Wood: Yeah, [00:28:30] Yonah Freemark: well, Yonah, anything else before [00:28:32] Jeff Wood: We wrap it up? [00:28:33] Yonah Freemark: No, I [00:28:34] Jeff Wood: think we covered a lot of ground today. We’ve covered a lot of [00:28:36] Yonah Freemark: ground. We’re in a challenging time, but I think, we just gotta push for better places. [00:28:41] That’s what we’re doing, right? [00:28:42] Jeff Wood: Yeah. As it gets tougher at the federal level, the local and the state levels are going to be where it’s at and there’s where you can make change. And again, there’s stuff you can do, instead of doom scrolling, you can, volunteer locally, you can call your representatives, you can do all kinds of stuff. [00:28:55] to try to figure out how you fit into this larger world of planning and cities and making the better. And everybody who’s listening to the show is already on that track because our audience may be smaller than say like a 99 percent invisible, but we are mighty and we are focused on these issues specifically. [00:29:10] And we can make our places better and Jonah, you’re always writing papers and doing really great stuff and I really appreciate you. Thanks. Where can folks find you if you wish to be found? [00:29:21] Yonah Freemark: I guess maybe a change since last year, I’m no longer on Twitter X, whatever we call it, but I am on blue sky wife remark, always posting on there and also on LinkedIn. [00:29:30] Jeff Wood: Okay. It’s interesting to change midstream and we’ve made changes before. You and I boasted blog a lot on our sites and that disappeared when Facebook and Twitter came out and now it’s just another change. I think it’s just an evolution per se of what’s happening, but absolutely. [00:29:45] Yonah, thanks again for joining us. Thanks everybody for listening and we’ll see you next year.
Yonah Freemark All right. Thank you.
